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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
686
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Posted - 2012.03.20 06:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yes.
Tier 2 BCs are too good, and obsolete cruisers, field command ships, and short range HACs. Tier 1s are fine-ish. Tier 3s almost completely obsolete sniper HACs.
It comes down to battlecruisers being way too light and agile for how much punch they pack. How a battlecruiser "should" be is represented by the Ferox or Prophecy -- perhaps with a bit more firepower tacked on. The Hurricane and Drake, plus the Myrmidon and Harbinger to some extent, are just way too powerful for their price.
The CSM minutes hinted at BCs getting the nerfbat soon. Let's hope those changes will be appropriate.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
686
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 15:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:3200mm plates
Squeezing one of those on a Damnation for maximum win in 3... 2...
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
686
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 17:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hrett wrote:
It just seems the problem with them now is that BC can wtfpwn frigs and dessies too easily. So their engagement envelope is too big.
They can't WTFpwn frigs that well. Interceptors can tackle BCs really well, and AFs can get all up in BC's faces and break tracking. Killing destroyers is by design -- destroyers aren't supposed to be effective against anything above their size.
However, BCs (especially nano'd) are only a little slower than crusiers, don't cost that much more (after insurance) and they pack FAR more punch (2x more). That makes the lost agility worth the extra punch in almost every case, and makes it impossible for cruisers to even compare to BCs.
Nerf BC speed/agility (or just mass) to only be slightly better than BS, and the problems go away.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
686
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 18:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Nerf BC speed/agility (or just mass) to only be slightly better than BS, and the problems go away.
I'm fine with this for Tier 1/2 BCs, but Tier 3 BCs are expressly designed to be cruisers sporting BS guns. They have their own host of problems related to tracking and I would say they're probably the most balanced BCs. -Liang Ed: I'm a bit concerned by the term "slightly". I'm fine with nerfing Tier 1/2 BC mobility... but it doesn't need massacred.
Tier 3s are faster and more agile than sniper HACs, while having more damage at the same time, too. Tracking notwithstanding, it just seems wrong that a 60 mil ISK specialized hull is more effective at long range sniping than a 120 mil ISK specialized hull (that requires better skills). They should be the fastest of the BCs, but not any faster than cruiser hulls. (This comparison brought to you by Tornado vs Muninn)
As for the "slightly better than BS" -- I don't have numbers. Those are up to CCP to decide on. I think the Harbinger's mobility is a good reference point for what the Hurricane should be changed to, with the other BC's following suit to preserve relative racial mobility... but that's just my opinion.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
686
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 18:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
You remember last night when I told you that people ignoring tracking are dumb, and you responded that people ignoring sig radius are dumb?
Yeah.
-Liang
Hm, I stand corrected, in a straight up "snipe each other" thing, a Muninn would destroy a Tornado -- if it kept moving. The issue remains that against stationary or low-transversal targets (optimal situation if you're aiming for alpha), the Tornado is far superior. Coupled with the fact that Muninn has drones, I could let it go. However, it still bothers me the Tornado is faster than the Muninn, and the Naga is faster than the Eagle. It just doesn't make sense given the sizes of the ships.
Oddly enough, the Oracle is not faster than the Zealot, and I am fine with the balance between the two. I am also fine with the Talos being the mini-Megathron it is.
Tier 3s are indeed better balanced than the other battlecruiers are, but they can still use a bit of work.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
686
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 19:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:That said, I occasionally find myself wishing that bonused medium weapons went as far as unbonused large weapons. For instance, the pulse Zealot should have similar range to the pulse Oracle (and Geddon) assuming similar numbers of TEs/TCs. That'd be swell, but probably OP as hell.
I'd probably fly that Zealot every day of the week, sporting an AB and killing everything in sight from range. 
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
687
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 19:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Yet the 50km pulse Zealots you want are?
I think he wants 50km Pulse Zealots like I want 300 DPS frigate lasers, but we both know those are horrible and broken ideas.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
688
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
The proposed Drake nerf obsoletes the Cerb - something you said you were keen to avoid.
-Liang
The Cerberus in it's current form yes. Various adjustment I suggested such as faster speed, more agility, more cap for running an MWD, 6 Launchers, removal off all rig penalties changes the field. For one thing my Cerb would more Damage with missiles then the Drake, be better at maintaining it with an MWD, be much more agile, and be fast enough to keep larger competitors from closing range.
Stop it, you're making me daydream about tackling one of these in an AF.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
689
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 17:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Wait wait wait... Let me see if I get this right:
Shield tanking nano setups are more popular than armor setups so... we nerf the armor setups.
Brilliant!
(/sarcasm)
No Hurricane or Drake is ever fit for over 90k EHP, even if they "can be". You're missing the big picture balancing view by focusing on comparing raw numbers. Stop EFT-warrioring.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
689
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 18:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Make speed and sig a non issue and make the difference between Armor and Shield that of low slot vs mid slots.
See, people whine about Eve being dumbed down when it's just a simple name change, but a change like this one is true "dumbing down". The armor mass vs shield sig radius penalties are essential attributes of each type of tanking, and add flavor and depth to combat.
An Ares or Malediction is better at breaking the tracking of the ship it's tackling because it doesn't armor tank, whereas the Stiletto tries to solve that with raw speed due to its shield tank. The brickiness of fleet Drakes is countered by the fact that hitting one is as easy as hitting the broad side of a barn, while the brickiness of Harbingers is countered by the fact that they are slower than some battleships when fit for maximum tank.
On top of that, 1600mm plates should not be changed. 200mm and 400mm plates are frigate plates, and 800mm and 1600mm plates are cruiser plates. Battleships make do with 1600s, but in case you haven't noticed, the 1600mm plate does not take a significant amount of any battleship's fittings, just as LSEs do not. I would be fine with the addition of 3200mm and 6400mm plates for battleships, or of XLSEs, but the current tank progression is not the problem.
The problem is that across the board, at all tasks, battlecruisers are superior to cruisers. That is, there is not a single thing that a cruiser does well (excepting EWAR) that there does not exist a battlecruiser that does the same thing better. That is causing cruisers to fall into disuse. Changes to tank only doesn't do anything to create a niche for cruisers. It just changes mechanics for the sake of changing them.
If a battlecruiser is supposed to be a heavier cruiser, most things are already fine. "Heavier" implies a bigger tank and bigger damage, which are already the case. However, it also implies "slower, clumsier, easier to hit, and more difficulty against smaller targets", which are not the case -- at least, not significantly. Some solutions to this?
- Buff cruiser speed/agility, particularly in egregiously lacking cases like the Moa and Maller.
- Nerf BC speed/agility (increase their mass) to eliminate nano fit abuse.
- Nerf BC tracking (25% tracking penalty across the board, with equivalent explosion velocity/radius penalty on Drake?)
- Nerf BC signature radius (make 'em bigger)
- If mega-tanks are an issue (I'm not convinced they are), increase penalties of doing so (1600mm plate mass, LSE sig radius)
Simply tweaking tanks of ships doesn't balance them, and a base cruiser having many times the EHP of an assault frigate is not balance.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
689
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Posted - 2012.03.21 18:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:If you want to turn cruisers into BCs, you need to be nerfing their cruiser attributes.
Watch your pronouns. You make it sound like you want to nerf cruisers' cruiser attributes.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
690
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 18:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:****, not this **** again 
You mad?
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
690
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 20:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kaikka Carel wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Sooooooooo...
Cruisers need more capacitor. Everyone agrees?
Most cruisers need a bigger fitting grid? Everyone agrees?
The rest of the equation is going to be speed vs. EHP. Raise the cruisers in these areas or nerf BC. approve since the whole conversation is pointless unless one of you guys is a hidden developer.
You have no idea what sweet CCP _______ name my main has. I am the secret CCP developer that never posts on forums or devblogs, or shows up in videos, or comes to Fanfest, but is the one who actually does all of the work behind the scenes. It's a hobby of mine.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
693
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Posted - 2012.03.22 18:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:OP- yes.
Hopefully the upcoming tiericide will narrow the gap between t1 BCs and the cruisers. If cruisers come out decent, with better agility and ewar (thanks to the specialized hulls) then the more powerful BC's I'll consider it balanced. Right now, there's two kinds of cruiser sized PVP ships: BC's, and Hurricanes.
And Drakes.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
695
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 15:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:
I like this idea a lot. It strikes me that all BCs should use large weapons.
What would be the point of the brutix, ferox, prophecy, harbinger, cyclone, and hurricane, then? The tier 3 would obsolete them all if they all became glass cannons with large weapons. The myrmidon would field five ogres again in addition to large hybrids and the drake would fire torpedoes or cruise missiles; since they have different weapon platforms they wouldn't be obsoleted.
That's like saying that the Abaddon obsoletes the Armageddon, or that the Tempest is useless because the Maelstrom is just better. Each ship is good at something different, and there is enough variety in roles that the ships all having the same gun size can still result in variety.
That said, a change like this would hugely limit the effectiveness of battlecruisers. It gives them a nice niche, but I'm not sure it's that good an idea.
Personally, I would love it. I fly frigates. Tier 3 BCs as they are are wonderful fodder, and if they had smaller/weaker versions, those would be even more fun to kill.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
966
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 19:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Captain Campion wrote:Prophecy is one of the worst ships in the game.
Harbinger is good, but it's much more expensive than an Omen - and not particularly worth it.
It's also similarly priced to a Navy Omen, which means there are two ships for the same role.
The Zealot's bang-for-buck is currently dead as it now costs about 3x as much as a Navy Omen.
Do I think BCs are overpowered? No not really.
Harbinger is balanced, Prophecy is sort of underpowered. The issue people have is with the Drake/Hurricane and some of the other BCs.
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
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